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dansimaster

Romania
15 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2007 :  23:52:50  


(first of all, I have to apologize regarding my poor english)
I need of some information about the meanings of μέθεξις and his synonymous in greek.

Also the sense of participation as a platonician concept. I know that is a dificult concept, may be perpetuu ambigous, but I want to know some other opinions.

Thank you!


 

George

Greece
615 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2007 :  10:47:08  

 

Let me suggest a way. If you know Greek, you can search for the words μετέχειν, μετοχή, μέθεξις, κοινωνία at the TLG CD-ROM. If you don't know Greek you can search for English equivalents as communion, communication, participation, etc., in the works of Plato, at http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/ancient-greece/plato-concept.asp ( a search on love - friendship is equally important, since these words are essentially synonyms with μέθεξις.

You can also find help to think on this subject by reading these texts

http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/ancient-greece/herakleitus-word.asp
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/ancient-greece/parmenides-being.asp
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/ancient-greece/anaxagoras-nous.asp
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/ancient-greece/plato-love-god.asp
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/ancient-greece/plato-creator.asp
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/ancient-greece/plato-living-being.asp
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/ancient-greece/plato-time.asp
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/ancient-greece/plato-god.asp
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/fathers/gregory-theologian-godwithgods.asp
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/fathers/basil-8thday.asp
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/fathers/nyssa-christ-birth.asp
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/physis/nyssa-man/default.asp
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/fathers/dionysius_smallness-identity.asp
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/fathers/maximus-holy-spirit.asp

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dansimaster

Romania
15 Posts

Posted - 15 Jul 2007 :  00:27:27  

 

Thank you very much!
Your sugestions was very hepfull.

On greek I have just some lexical knowledge limited to philosophical concepts.

I ask about participation, in platonical context, because I think that relation between Idea (or Form! this is an another fruitfull debate!) and sensible things is not symmetrical.

The points which you suggest me are, basicaly, mutual relations.

Even so, I repeat, you make a wonderfull job here. Is undoubtedly the best website in this field.

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rts60001

USA
3 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2007 :  06:43:11  

 

WINSTON: RE: μέθεξις
This word does not appear in the NT or in the Greek OT (LXX).
Its secular usage appears in 3 contexts: (1) Participation in time. E.g. Aristotle. (2) Participation in ideas. E.g. Plato. (3) In Aristotelian Logic, as containing or comprehending a genus or differentiating species.

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Don Paarlberg

USA
50 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2007 :  07:03:19  

 

Dan -

"Participation as a Platonic concept."

You seem to hope it may shed some light on this difficult issue if we get a better understanding of Plato's word, 'methesis', seeing the various contexts in which he and other ancient thinkers used it. That's a valid strategy. Perhaps you'll make some headway. Let me suggest, though, a reason why that approach may miss the point. (Perhaps this consideration has already occurred to you.)

Plato's writings strongly suggest that he continued fumbling unsuccessfully throughout his career to find a way of understanding relations (a) between sensible things and Ideas, and (b) among Ideas. He tried out this word and that, as well as various analogies with material relations. But it looks as though he never solved the problem to his own satisfaction, and therefore never settled on some one word, or some one analogy, that identified a viable concept. So, for example, we've got Socrates in the Phaedo at 100c asserting that beautiful things partake of beauty, but then immediately afterwards at 100d fuzzing things up with a claim that "the one thing that makes that object beautiful is the presence in it or association with it, in whatever way the relation comes about, of absolute beauty." (We in the U.S. make fun of vapid California teenagers who dodge questions with the pronouncement, "Whatever!") And similarly we see Plato in the Parmenides at 131a-33e beating the bushes in attempts to find some analogy that expresses this relationship - wholes and parts, covering a collection with a sail, imitation, etc. And as you know, Plato more frequently talks of 'likenesses', leaving it unclear whether he regarded 'likeness' as an alternative to 'participation' or perhaps instead as an analogy that showed how participation worked. So as I say, it looks to me as though Plato himself never settled on some one 'concept of participation' that he regarded as successful. So I doubt that you'll make much real headway by focusing on just one of the words he used. (I think it was Aristotle who solved the problem Plato wrestled with, by construing it as an issue of predication and by distinguishing logical relations of predication from real relations of properties' presence in things.)

Don

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dansimaster

Romania
15 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2007 :  09:18:45  

 

Don

I think that you make a very good presentation of the problems related with 'participation'. Also your sugestion that Plato was confused in this regard to the end of his life could be sustainable. But I think that the motivations of this relation (methexis or 'whatever') between Idea and particulars could be used to elucidate why Aristotle himself, in his Metaphysic looks very interest in subject. His attitude show that the greatest lack of platonical doctrine of Ideas is just that confusing in regard to participation meaning.
My problem growns if we consider that in later platonism and more in neoplatonism (e.g. in Proclus philosophy) our notion has a great career.
I have to apologize (again) for my english. It is one of the reasons because I'm unclear sometimes (all the times)

P.S. may be you can indicate me some electronic sources in this topic. I think to some studies or articles in this field. Google was not very helpfull to this time.

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