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George

Greece
615 Posts

Posted - 15 Aug 2008 :  03:51:49  


As I was preparing the bilingual version of the Septuagint Old Testament ( http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/septuagint/default.asp ), I noticed this phrase from the Proverbs (8.1): "Thou shalt proclaim wisdom". In the original this reads "Σύ τὴν σοφίαν κηρύξεις". The Σύ pronoun is here placed for emphasis. "Τὴν σοφίαν κηρύξεις" would be enough to let us understand whom this command is addressed to, since "σύ" is included in the ending of the verb (κηρύξεις).

If we translate this phrase with "Thou shalt proclaim wisdom", it as if the original was "Τὴν σοφίαν κηρύξεις", i.e. all emphasis is gone. We must find a way to express the extra Σύ of the starting, e.g. "You yourself shall proclaim wisdom", or "It is your duty to proclaim wisdom", etc.

There is also a second emphasis, at "Σοφίαν". The original is not "σοφίαν κηρύξεις", as it could be, but "τὴν σοφίαν κηρύξεις", i.e. in English it must become "the wisdom", not just "wisdom". Therefore, "you shall proclaim wisdom" diminishes the meaning, compared with something like "you yourself shall proclaim the wisdom".


 

Aristokles

USA
44 Posts

Posted - 15 Aug 2008 :  18:34:39  

 

If I may ask, are you then correcting/editing Brenton's translation?

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George

Greece
615 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2008 :  02:02:03  

 

A bilingual version is of interest to people who know or are learning Greek. My intention is to have occasional notes, so that in similar cases one may be helped to understand the text better. I'd like also to have some Patristic commentary in certain chapters.

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giovanni

Italy
45 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2008 :  12:07:17  

 

Well, I quote Prov. 8,1-4:
ΣΥ τὴν σοφίαν κηρύξεις, ἵνα φρόνησίς σοι ὑπακούσῃ· 2 ἐπὶ γὰρ τῶν ὑψηλῶν ἄκρων ἐστίν, ἀνὰ μέσον δὲ τῶν τρίβων ἕστηκε· 3 παρὰ γὰρ πύλαις δυναστῶν παρεδρεύει, ἐν δὲ εἰσόδοις ὑμνεῖται. 4 ῾Υμᾶς, ὦ ἄνθρωποι, παρακαλῶ, καὶ προΐεμαι ἐμὴν φωνὴν υἱοῖς ἀνθρώπων·
Now, the Kuehner - Gerth Griechische Grammatik says (§ 454) that the personal pronom (I, you) is employed only when there is a special force on it, hence, especially in opposite phrases, sometimes for major clearness.
So, look at the opposition ΣΥ - ῾Υμᾶς, here is the reason for the presence of the demonstrative pronom, You (God) - you (men). So, it, also became clearer, that on one side there is God and, on the other, ordinary people.

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George

Greece
615 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2008 :  12:56:12  

 

Hi Giovanni! Of course, such a scheme is possible syntactically, but not in the present case, since the speaker is not the same. The "you" and all that follows is said by Wisdom herself. If you doubt about this, read below verse 12 (Ἐγὼ ἡ Σοφία, I Wisdom). Thus, the author introduces the speech of Wisdom and from verse 4 (You, O men) and afterwards Wisdom herself starts to speak. The "you" of the first verse is not you "God", but you "my son" (see the first chapter of the Proverbs -verse 8). It is interesting also to note, that while Solomon speaks to his own, the Wisdom speaks to all men.

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giovanni

Italy
45 Posts

Posted - 06 Oct 2008 :  12:24:32  

 

Well, so it is not even perfectly sure and clear to whom that YOU refers. I think it is obvious that it reports to some entity opposed to "you ordinary people".

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