KOINONIA Greek Forum Login To Start Posting!
KOINONIA - Greek Forum
Profile | Active Topics | Latest Topics | Latest Replies | Popular
RSS Feed | Partners | Search | AFQ


» Forgot your Password?

 All Communities
 History, Culture, Society
 New Hellenism
 The primacy of the pope and the East
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
Registration is closed. The Forum remains available only as a source of published information.

 


 
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  

George

Greece
615 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2009 :  14:42:50  


This is a message by James Carvin (sent to Elpenor by email):

"There are references to Migne in many scholarly works that I need to check the Greek or Latin original. Is there anyone who can help me with this on a one reference at a time basis? I can't find Migne online anywhere...

The references I need right now are from a Catholic apologetics web site. They claim that the Eastern fathers supported the pope. I suspect they are using a very bad translation as they have already displayed their dishonesty in many ways. Either way, their quotations are out of context. So I would like to have the original Greek and a better translation of the original Greek from Migne... Here are three:

Macedonius declared, when desired by the Emperor Anastasius to condemn the Council of Chalcedon, that 'such a step without an Ecumenical Synod presided over by the Pope of Rome is impossible.' (Macedonius, Patr. Graec. 108: 360a (Theophan. Chronogr. pp. 234-346 seq.)

Theodore the Studite Writing to Pope Paschal: Let him (Patriarch Nicephorus of Constantinople) assemble a synod of those with whom he has been at variance, if it is impossible that representatives of the other Patriarchs should be present, a thing which might certainly be if the Emperor should wish the Western Patriarch (the Roman Pope) to be present, to whom is given authority over an ecumenical synod; but let him make peace and union by sending his synodical letters to the prelate of the First See. (Theodore the Studite, Patr. Graec. 99, 1420)

Hear, O Apostolic Head, divinely-appointed Shepherd of Christ's sheep, keybearer of the Kingdom of Heaven, Rock of the Faith upon whom the Catholic Church is built. For Peter art thou, who adornest and governest the Chair of Peter. Hither, then, from the West, imitator of Christ, arise and repel not for ever (Ps. xliii. 23). To thee spake Christ our Lord: 'And thou being one day converted, shalt strengthen thy brethren.' Behold the hour and
the place. Help us, thou that art set by God for this. Stretch forth thy hand so far as thou canst. Thou hast strength with God, through being the first of all. (Letter of St. Theodore and four other Abbots to Pope Paschal, Bk. ii Ep. 12, Patr. Graec. 99, 1152-3)

End of James' letter
-----------

James,

All your references are correct; they exist in the Greek original. You need to check the context of course, both in the text and in history - under what circumstances those things were said, and what their exact meaning was.

If the Catholic site you mentioned said vaguely that the Eastern fathers supported the primacy of pope, it is wrong. Certain patriarchs (who may not even be considered "fathers" in the East) supported the pope's primacy for various reasons. We are talking about primacy to rule, not a primacy in honour, which indeed was always recognised.

Simple common sense says, that if the Eastern fathers had supported the primacy of the pope, there wouldn't have been schism(s).

For Migne - Actually, you can download the full series of Migne's Patrologia Graeca. Read details at http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/fathers/migne-patrologia-graeca.asp


 

jamescarvin

USA
2 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2009 :  17:35:01  

 

Thank you for your response.I agree with your analysis. I have tried the link to Migne and it brings a page not found for both individual pages and the entire series. Do I have to obtain emule to get it?

In order to determine the context for each passage I need to have access to the document. and read all of the works of each author.

Also to respond, it would be helpful to find other passages by the same authors which contradict these, if they exist. Maximus the Confessor and Theodore the Studite are certainly both considered Eastern fathers.

Go to Top of Page


George

Greece
615 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2009 :  18:02:48  

 

Yes, you need to have emule installed in order for the links to Patrologia Graeca to work.

Go to Top of Page


  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
Jump To:

Promote Greek Learning

Use Elpenor's Libraries and Greek Language departments to stimulate your thinking. To refer to a text there published, just copy its url and paste it in your post. ||| Get updates of all Ellopos sites by e-mail. ||| Download Shortcuts for easy access to the Communities - or drag this icon and drop it in the Links bar of your browser :ELPENOR

Reference address : https://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/koinonia/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=516© Elpenor